Help needed ! Hellcat wing fold

Started by neil foster · 18 · 2 years ago
  • Profile Photo
    neil foster said 2 years, 2 months ago:

    Hi all,I am currently working on a FAA Hellcat with wings folded and could do with advice about the correct colour for inside the wing structure that is visible, I recently completed the Eduard Hellcat (two in fact) with wings down, Eduard called for the wheel wells and landing gear to be the same colour as the under side of the aircraft which made sense but I have no idea if the inside of the wing fold would even have been painted at all or maybe some primer colour.

    Any help / advice will be gratefully welcomed. Cheers.

  • Profile Photo
    George Williams said 2 years, 2 months ago:

    Interesting question, Neil @neil-foster, only wish I could help. If I actually had a picture I’d probably tell you the wrong colour as I’m colour blind, as my art teacher used to say “Mmmm, George, interesting choice of colour”. Good luck with this, I’m sure someone on this site will be able to help.

  • Profile Photo
    Tom Bebout said 2 years, 2 months ago:

    Neil these pics are from Squadron/Signal F4F Walk Around hope this helps
    Tom Bebout

    3 attached images. Click to enlarge.

  • Profile Photo
    Tom Bebout said 2 years, 2 months ago:

    Looks like Grumman did the wing folds in zinc chromate

    Tom

    1 attached image. Click to enlarge.

  • Profile Photo
    Louis Gardner said 2 years, 2 months ago:

    Neal, @neil-foster
    They used Grumman Gray in place of the typical Zinc Chromate colors in most locations on the Hellcat. But the zinc Chromate color was used. On aircraft that were painted in the Tri-color schemes, the inner portions of the wing were painted in either Non Specular White or Dark Sea Blue, depending on what position of the wing you are talking about. I have some pictures showing exactly how the wings were painted on this particular Hellcat. Please stand by and I'll post them up as soon as I find them. They were stored on a photo disc.

    The reason why I'm saying 95 percent sure is because once they were used in the field and assigned to a unit, anything available for paint could have been used.

    On a solid overall Glossy Sea Blue version, (very late F6F-3's and F6F-5's) this area would have also been sprayed using the same colors as the exterior. This would have been Gloss Sea Blue then.

    Please stand by and I'll post up the pictures soon.

  • Profile Photo
    Louis Gardner said 2 years, 2 months ago:

    Here’s some of the pictures that I took during the restoration of the Hellcat. This plane was meticulously restored. Granted it is a set of pictures I took during a restoration, but this Hellcat was done with the mission of keeping it as close to original as possible during the process.

    This plane was delivered to the shop at about 75 percent original, (and it had not touched in some areas), so they were the first ones to work on it since it was built by Grumman during the War.

    The wheels shown on the Hellcat here were the late War stamped type. This Hellcat originally used the cast "spoke" style you will also find on Corsairs. They ended up eventually finding a useable set of wheels, and before this restoration was completed, it was delivered as closely to how it would have looked when brand new. These stamped wheels you see in these photos were replaced with the cast spoke style. The tires were also swapped out at this time, and they have a diamond pattern tire tread now as well.

    They used a computerized camera to color match the paint they uncovered when they stripped the original paint off. The shop also has a WW2 color paint chip book and between the two this Hellcat is likely to be as close to the original as it can be.

    What was found is that Grumman used "Grumman Gray" in place of Zinc Chromate in most areas. Here you can see the wings after the metal work was done, and they were repainted using a computer generated scan to closely match the colors they uncovered.



    These colors were then painted over again, using white and Non Speculative Dark Sea Blue. The areas ahead of the wing folds were painted Dark Blue.

    The majority of the wing center section was built as a single unit, and it was painted using White on the areas that were visible from the landing gear bays and rear section of the wing folds. You will also see some small spots that used Zinc Chromate Green.


    Here you can see how the inner wing was painted white from the wing fold hinges, to the trailing edge of the wing.

    I took a closer photo showing this location back in 2017.

    Once it was assembled, this is how it looked.

    These last two pictures show the overall appearance of the aircraft with the wings folded. My understanding is that the Navy wanted these planes camouflaged like this so they would not be as visible while parked on deck and the wings were folded.

    The upper portions of the outer wing panels were painted using Dark Sea Blue back to about halfway in between the main spar, and the the second wing spar.

    When these Hellcats were delivered in overall Glossy Sea Blue, the entire exterior airframe was painted the same Dark Blue color. You would have found Grumman Gray inside the wings and fuselage, but it would not have been visible from the outside, even with the wings folded.

    Now they were repainted on the exterior when camouflaged for use by the FAA. They would have been painted using FAA colors, possibly using "US approximations". I have also read that Grumman used paints that matched the FAA colors, where other companies did not. I'm not sure about that however.

    I'm fairly certain the original Dark Blue and White inner areas on the wing folds and main landing gear wells would have remained the same colors as shown here.

    If anything was repainted on the exterior, (using these FAA colors), chances are it would have been done so on the areas ahead of the wing fold hinges, since they were the most accessible.

    Again I want to say that all bets are off once the aircraft went into service in the field. Anything could have happened from this point on as far as colors being used.

    Hope this helps.
    Cheers !

  • Profile Photo
    neil foster said 2 years, 2 months ago:

    No worries George, I'm partly colour blind too, Red and Green deficient so multi coloured camo's like Israeli Sand , Green and brown are difficult.Cheers.

  • Profile Photo
    neil foster said 2 years, 2 months ago:

    Cheers Tom , some really amazing pictures, thanks for taking the time . I wonder if the FAA would have left them as they left the factory (the wing fold mechanism) or painted them to match the FAA colours.
    Neil

  • Profile Photo
    neil foster said 2 years, 2 months ago:

    Thanks for taking the time and for the amazing pictures, I have some work to do!
    Neil.

  • Profile Photo
    John Healy said 2 years, 2 months ago:

    Hi Neil. Are you doing a Hellcat I or II? Hellcat Is were painted in the Temperate Sea Scheme by Grumman using “equivalent “ colors that were very close to the British versions. For what it’s worth, Airfix advises Humbrol #90 (Sky) for the visible interior parts of the wing. My guess would be Grumman Gray or Sky. I’d try to find photos and see how close the wing folds tones look to the undersides.

    Hellcat IIs were sprayed gloss sea blue overall, identical to US planes. This included the wheel wells and wing fold areas.

    Happy Hellcating!

  • Profile Photo
    Louis Gardner said 2 years, 2 months ago:

    Neil, @neil-foster
    As far as the FAA repainting goes: The Fleet Air Arm agreed to accept the planes as delivered once the Hellcat was being painted in the overall Glossy Sea Blue scheme. I'm fairly certain these were called Hellcat II's. Some of the very last F6F-3's were also painted this way. Some of the earliest F6F-5's still had the small window that was just behind the sliding canopy too. Somewhere I have a list of the changes and when they were made according to the Bureau Number.

    So the Hellcat II's would have looked exactly as they did when they left the Grumman factory, but wearing FAA markings and serial numbers. Now as far as the repainting them in the FAA camouflage colors, a safe bet would be to leave the wing fold areas as they were done in the restoration pictures I posted above, or if you used any of the FAA colors, I would limit them to the forward portion ahead of the wing fold hinges, as show in this picture here.


    This area would have been fairly easy to get to and spray paint onto. The areas inside the wings and landing gear wells were likely left alone, as delivered, simply because these places are not so easy to clean up / degrease, and then follow up with painting.

    I tend to think the FAA aircraft painted by Grumman would have been painted with the wings extended, and not folded.

    In the end though, it's your model, and I would paint it up how you would like it to be. Have fun with it.

    Take care,

    Louis

  • Profile Photo
    Tom Cleaver said 2 years, 2 months ago:

    Neil @neil-foster: The FAA Hellcats came from Grumman already painted in FAA colors. FWIW, when the F6F-3 at Chino was painted as an FAA Hellcat I, the wing fold interior was Sky. That was a very accurate restoration paint-wise for the exterior, so I think the interior was also.

  • Profile Photo
    Louis Gardner said 2 years, 2 months ago:

    John, @j-healy
    These are good questions you asked because it definitely makes a huge difference for the reasons you stated. We were posting our replies at around the same time. Did Grumman use the US "equivalent colors" or were the colors they used a very good match for the FAA colors ? I have read how this was done both ways and it can be very confusing.

    Tom, @tcinla
    I have seen some pictures showing completed FAA Hellcat 1's ready for delivery at the Grumman factory. Going from memory they were in the Ginter book on the Hellcat. They were camouflaged and had typical Royal Navy serial numbers applied on the fuselages near the tail section. Do you know for certain these aircraft were painted this way ?

    I'm curious because if the plane was being built as a FAA plane on the assembly line, wouldn't you think it would have been painted as you described ?

    On the other hand, if it was painted by Grumman in FAA colors after final assembly, I would think it would have been sprayed with the wings extended, thereby not painting over the inner structure. This alternative method would have had the US Navy colors I mentioned evident when the wings were folded.

    As an in between, they could have sprayed the areas forward of the wing fold hinge when the wings were folded using FAA colors on top of the US Navy ones.

    The reasons why I am asking is I have several FAA Hellcat II's under way too. These all would have had Gloss Sea Blue in these areas we are talking about.




    I have plans to build up some more, but this next batch will be Hellcat I's and FAA camouflaged.

    They will also likely have the wings folded like how Neil is building his. I recently purchased some more Eduard F6F's.

  • Profile Photo
    John Healy said 2 years, 2 months ago:

    Louis, the “equivalent” colors were very close matches to British paints. I use my usual British paints for these aircraft. Confusion arises because some manufacturers used “substitute “ colors for FAA bound planes. The substitute colors were olive drab and US sea gray over US sky gray.
    Most Hellcat IIs would be identical to US F6F-5s in gloss sea blue. Some early deliveries got the “equivalent “ colors for the Temperate Sea Scheme.

  • Profile Photo
    Louis Gardner said 2 years, 2 months ago:

    John, @j-healy
    Thank you for your reply. This helps to clear up some confusion for me, and I do appreciate it. I know a lot about the Hellcat, and some other stuff pertaining to American, Japanese, and some of the German colors, but not so much when it comes to the actual colors used by the FAA.

    The one you mentioned about Olive Drab was used a lot, especially on the Corsairs bound to the Royal Navy.

    Thanks again, and I sincerely mean this. 🙂