Review: The (not so) “Great 109Gate” Brew-Ha-Ha
As with most Brew-Ha-ha's (that's an alcohol-fueled argument anyone outside of it will laugh at) at Hyperscale, the Great 109Gate Whine is mostly "overscale" in the amount of hot air expended by people who don't know what they're talking about since they haven't actually seen the kit. (This is exceeded only by Eduard's hubris in announcing it as The Bestest 109G That Will Ever Exist)
I have the new Eduard 1/48 Messerschmitt Bf 109G-6 (Thanks iModeler!).
I have compared the fuselage and wing and tail with a Hasegawa 109G. There are very interesting measurements.
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Measured from the rear, the rear fuselages from the rudder hinge line to the wing trailing edge is the same length. However, the Eduard cockpit is 4mm forward of the Hasegawa kit, and the nose is 4mm longer. Get this: the canopy pieces of both kits are interchangeable dimensionally, so the Eduard is not wider than the Hasegawa.
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However, if you measure the fuselages lined up wing root to wing root, with the wing leading edges exactly matched, the nose length from the wing leading edge to the front end is the same for both kits, and the cockpits are in the same location.
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Measuring from the nose, the Eduard kit is approximately 2mm wider in chord at the wing root (with the additional area to the rear), and the rear fuselage is 4mm longer at the rudder hinge line.
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Comparing the Eduard fuselage to the Hasegawa fuselage, the rear fuselage panels line up exactly to panel line 4 (just ahead of the radio compartment) at which point the Eduard panels are slightly wider, adding up to about 1.5mm at the leading edge of the vertical fin. But when you line up the fuselages nose to nose with wing root leading edges matched, you get the 4mm longer rear fuselage. .
Thus, the 4mm length difference is spread out, with 2mm happening in the immediate rear of the cockpit area and the other 2mm happening between the radio compartment and the rudder hinge.
I then compared the wings.
The Eduard kit is approximately 3mm longer span on each wing than the Hasegawa kit. If you compare the upper Hasegawa wing part to the upper Eduard wing part, they are an exact match out to the inner edge of the leading edge slats. The extra length is at the outer end. If you were to cut off the Eduard wing at the end and then attach its tip, the wing would be the same span as the Hasegawa. The Eduard leading edge slat is 4mm longer compared, and the aileron is 2 mm longer than the Hasegawa, and the Eduard flap is wider in span by 1.5 mm than the Hasegawa.
So, if the Eduard wing is cut at the outer end to equal the Hasegawa wing (which everyone says is OK dimensionally), everything fits and you have the right-size wing. If you trim the Eduard flap by 2mm, and then the aileron by 1mm on each end, everything will overall fit and look right.
Overall assessment: Eduard's "oversize" is not proportional overall. It is slightly different at the wing, and there are differences throughout the length of the fuselage in minor measurements, adding up to the 4mm. Interestingly, the tail units - vertical fin/rudder, horizontal stab/elevator - are the same exact size compared directly.
Given the taper of the rear fuselage, I don't see any place one could cut out a 4mm plug. If one leaves the fuselage alone and cuts the wing down to equal the Hasegawa kit, I think the result would be a model that won't look "outsize" next to a Hasegawa kit to anyone who doesn't have exact measuring devices implanted in their eyes.
Overall verdict: "some modeling skill required" will give you a model that is "close enough." None of what has to be done is beyond the ability of the average scale muddler. And it can be done without harming the very nice surface detail.
Most people can get away with leaving it alone, because sitting there as a completed model, the differences are visually just not big enough to make a difference (unlike the Hasegawa Spitfire IX fuselage).
UPDATE:
I have the model assembled. Pix will be in the WIP forum.
The wing unmodified does indeed look "too long." The solution is simple. I cut 2mm off each wing, shortening the aileron and slat accordingly, then attached the wingtip. Overall, the wing is 1mm longer on each side than the Hasegawa wing, and it is not noticeable when the two were set beside each other wingtip to wingtip.
Assembled and sitting wingtip to wingtip with a Hasegawa kit, you cannot tell the slight size difference in the fuselage.
Some say the cockpit is too big. I set the Hasegawa canopies in position and had perfect fit.
UPDATE 2:
There are now photos of the wing cut and the cockpit at the WIP page.
yuck
That's accurate!
There's an old saying, "the reason academic wars are so bloody is there's so little at stake." Replace "academic" with "modeling" and one has described the situation perfectly.
you know V.K but you don't know "Gaston" the terrific modelist lol
it" s a great model but i don't like the 109...
Fortunately, I have only seen the legendary (in his own mind) Gaston's tracks, never got chased and treed by him. 🙂
Gaston. OMG, as it were...
"the reason academic wars are so bloody is there’s so little at stake.” Replace “academic” with “modeling” and one has described the situation perfectly."
Ding,Ding,Ding we have a winner. Most of these Academic imposters have more to do with the imposters ego. The rest of the silent majority of the modeling public will buy another Me-109 G-6 and proudly build,paint and display them. The one percent will be moved aside by the crush of Euro,Dollar and Yen votes in the peoples court of public opinion. If looks good its good. Even if it ain't right.
Yup. If the builder is reasonably pleased with the result, who cares overmuch about rivet-counting?
That to me is the more art-oriented approach, with the more engineering-oriented approach as the secondary one. Let those who wish to build in the other direction, or in both, do as they wish - the whole point is for the builder to be reasonably pleased etc.
Oh, and when I lost one of the Eduard "beule bumps" to the carpet monster, it was easily replaced by the drop-fit substitute of a Hasegawa part. Whatever is going on here, "proportionately oversize" is not the issue.
The latest over on HS is the drawing in a book and does the plane match it war. I smell something rotten and I think he helps designs kits for a different company, I re-read and Mansur (heck why not say it) started the buisness, I just don't get it, it is very entertaining though!
Hehe...that would be me who started the current 'book drawing' ruckus on HS. My intention was merely to show, using the meager references I have at hand, that the new Eduard Bf 109 might not be as bad as being made out to be. I thought Mansur was going to have a stroke!
He'd do the world a favor it he'd admit he works for the competition. A little "conflict of interest" there?
I'm reminded more and more of Tom Clancy's best character, John Clark, whose operating philosophy while saving Jack Ryan's bacon was always "Good enough is good enough, and perfect is a pain in the assets."
Mansur said he worked for Zvezda. He is making a much bigger deal of the thing than it deserves. HyperFlail away, boys.
I handled one of these kits last night at my monthly club meeting. Looks like a Messerschmitt to me, though somewhat over engineered. I have been following the threads on this particular kit over on the elitist "Hyperscale" website. Many may find the ranting over there to be quite amusing. Personally, I find it all to be quite pathetic. Grown men (and I use the two terms quite loosely) having a p*****g contest over a model kit. No wonder there is no new blood entering this hobby.
Looking over this new Messerschmitt, I could find nothing blatantly wrong with it. I am sure it will build up nicely. I will not be purchasing one, however, as I have quite a few 1/48 Hasegawa 109s in my stash and on my "to build" list.
Rather than p*****g and moaning over a few millimeters here and there, why not rant over yet another Messerschmitt kit being produced when a whole lot of popular WWII subjects are still not represented or under represented.
If I can think of anything to complain about regarding this kit, it would have to be the price. For about half of what Eduard is charging for their kit, I can purchase the Revell of Germany Bf109 in 1/32. Of course, I won,t as I have several Hasegawa 1/32 Bf109s in my stash and on my "to build" list.
Did anyone take note of the rants about the new Trumpeter Westland Whirlwind that is coming out? Three test shots of the kit sprues posted over at Hyperscale followed by a feeding frenzy of "This is wrong", "The contour is incorrect", or "It is a few millimeters off here and there".
As a healthcare professional, I would advise these so called experts to have themselves a good bowel movement as I find they have more shite flowing from their mouths than their arseholes.
Never mind the bollocks, if you want to build a Bf109G and have the means/preference for the Eduard version, then do so and let the experts rant and rave at each other. They have nothing better to do anyway. I do not see any of them getting laid any time soon (probably because their push-rods are a few millimeters too short).
Anyway, that is my story and I am sticking to it. Slainte.
Too right all around!
HS used to be "the place" and if you didn't go there every couple hours, stuff would have already been archived. Once the "purists" started driving away the "impure" ten years ago, it devolved down to the 50 regulars there, posting their 10 threads/day.
There's also the point to be made that the guy pouring gas on this particular fire happens to work for a competitor company that also does 109s. Bit of a conflict of interest?
Oh Christ, I can see it now! New cable TV reality show "Modeling Wars". Oh the humanity...
and "the lounge" at hyper scale is even uglier...as you said a core of people looking down their noses at you...too tough for me
Seamus, you said it all.
A good bowel movement! HA! That was darned funny, well I bit over on HS like a dummy and got smacked down a bit, it was still great fun. I was always the kid with the stick poking about where I shouldn't then running from bees! I find myself spending more time over here these days, much more civil and honestly more model building going on!
That is the great thing about iModeler. People don't b.s. about models, they build them.
Pay the man Shirley.
Exactly,
I couldn't agree more. Although I never participated in HyperScale's "reindeer games", I use to frequent the site quite a bit as it seemed to be the only game in town. That was, of course, until I found imodeler. Now I hardly ever go over to HS. What a shame. I have met Brett Green twice, over the years, and I have to say he is a really good sort. Probably one of the nicest fellows one could ever meet. How he allows these scale modeling hooligans to run helter skelter all over his website is beyond me.
Exactly right. Brett is a fine guy, known him since he got started, and I love the fact he set out to achieve what he has achieved.
Starting in 2004, there were a few "serious modelers" there who let their American politics substitute for their modeling skill, which was then tied to the ego inflation they were getting from all the "attaboys" from the peanut gallery, with the result they decided to "ethnically cleanse" the site. I think there must have been a hundred of us warning Brett this was happening and telling him he needed to take charge of the discussion board the way everyone else had learned to do after these hooligans had moved their targets. He never did it, and the current situation there is the result. There's far more participation in the model-picture sharing than there is in the "serious discussion." I think at the time he was reluctant to have these people start flaming him, since he was right on the cusp of the success he'd been working for.
The current ...Hold overs from the Jackal days, combined with what ever current campaign that the U.S. was/is involved in over seas, stirred but, not shaken ed with American jingoism.Makes for a slow cock tail of decline and staleness. Brett does some fine work and his opinions does count in my book...the peanut gallery can be a real Debbie Downer. One does have to cherry pick the information and take the rest with a grain of salt and a two aspirin at times given the egos involved.
"American politics"? Although I have run into the stereo-typical "Ugly American" from time to time, being a straight up "Dick-head" is hardly exclusive to Americans. You will find that sort in all cultures and ethnicities (and, of course, at HyperScale).
In the case of the specific people I am thinking of Seamus, I described them accurately. "Dick Head" indeed knows no borders, but the particular kind of American la-lal-lander I mean is unlike any others.
Point taken.
If, and when, I ever decide to do a 109 I will build one from my stash. As long as it resembles a 109 and not a Stearmn, I think I can handle that and will be satisfied.
Spot on, Frank. "Nuff said.
AMEN ! (but it has to have nice boxart too)
I feel like Rip van Winkle. Has there been a war? Did somebody win? What's a '109'?
A PT boat ?
i think the beauty of eduard is the price though...if you buy the profitpack you get a canopy mask...a lovely set of pre-painted photo-etch usually with belts and a great set of decals and stencils and a gorgeous model...all for $30.00 to $35.00 dollars...or a weekender for $15.00...you can't beat...it's one of the best bargains around...so give them a cheer
Hold on now there, Bob. I was not complaining about the price of the kit. I said "If I can think of anything to complain about..." which does not necessarily mean that I would. You are correct though, Eduard does give the modeler a lot of bang for his/her buck and surely the profi-pack kits are far cheaper to buy than if one bought all the bells and whistles separately. Still, one has to keep in mind the average modeler who does not use or care about aftermarket detail accessories, which I guess is what the "Weekend" edition kits are for. It is just my opinion but, despite being a little weak in the cockpit detail, I feel the many times re-boxed Revell/Mongram 1/48 Messerschmitt Bf109G10 kit is the best 109 for the money. As far as how accurate it is, I don't know and I don't care.
amen...but you have to admit...the monogram kits are starting to get expensive...TBD's going for 15 to 50...a couple months ago you couldn't give them away for 10...they [monograms] are edging up to an average of 20 dollars just on evil bay...much more at hobby lobby
You can wait and buy the Weekend edition or buy " Over Trees" just the sprues for around twenty buck plus shipping if your interested in the bear bones approach. I found the Weekend edition of the Spitfire to be very reasonable, it lacks the bells and whistles but, the basic plastic makes for a sound model.
My sentiments exactly, Seamus...never been a "stickler" for so-called accuracy! How's that old adage go..."if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck..."
If there's a complaint about cost, it should center around paint. The paint now costs more than what I paid for some of the kits in my stash.
I agree Bob, hard to beat what you get in the box, and Tom spot on with the American politics, at one time I thought if I read "Chicom company" one more time I was going to freak, and I am a guy who has spent time on the open ocean helping stare down the Chinese. Doesn't mean they can't build a decent kit, or a mediocre kit of a subject no one else will do so at least you have a starting point!
love that...helping stare down the Chinese...and being a navy brat i thank you for that service and mean it...but the ironic part is probably half your weapons parts came from there...what an upside down world
Yeah Bob you are SO right about parts, but one thing the gov. did right was in the paste few years corrected a lot of those issues. Once off Taiwan I was watching the Chinese do naval maneuvers and we were keeping the straights open and while I was doing paperwork (pre-NALCOMIS days for those who know what that means!) and couldn't find one of those darned black skillcraft "Property of the US Government" pens I grabbed one from a drawer and it said..."Made in China" on the side 🙂
Totally agree with that last bit, Bob. Despite all the bashing, I love those Trumpeter kits, especially the 1/32 P-51B/C. Yeah, it has it's flaws, but nothing that cannot be corrected if one chooses to do so. Still, built OOB it sure is a Helluva lot better than the old Revell 1/32 P-51B/C.
i agree that p-51 b looks good built
Well, now we have just demonstrated that if the airplane is "important" to you, the little details do stand out. That slim-jim nose and the completely-wrong airfoil, which changes the whole look of the airplane, make that kit one of my "avoid at all costs" kits. I think Tamiya's going to make us early Mustang lovers happy, probably next year.
yea but it's a good looking model...i remember guys grafting the hasegawa nose onto the old revell tail...and tamiya is 200 bucks man...over priced right or wrong
Ha, Ha, Ha, Bob! I was one of those guys who tried that. It actually worked out pretty well. A little dry fitting, cutting, filling, sanding, and scribing and I had a pretty nice P-51B/C fuselage. Unfortunately, that is where the project ended. The Revell wings did not look anything like P-51B wings and there was no way that I could think of to fix that. I couldn't use the Hasegawa wings as they were for a P-51D which is a totally different animal. I still have that fuselage laying about somewhere. If I ever figure out a way to get the wings right, maybe I will finish her off
I do not know if this will come as any consolation to those of you who have had to suffer the fools who deem themselves the experts of this hobby, but it may, at the very least, give you a chuckle. The experts are everywhere! Those of you who have bothered to read my profile know that, beside scale modeling, I am also an avid flight simulation/virtual pilot. I prefer flying First World War flight sims but do venture into the WWII realm from time to time. Same as with scale modeling, there are experts on the flight simulation forums also. What do they complain about? The flight models! That is to say, how a particular aircraft flies. Of course the flight model is always wrong and the so called expert will write post upon post as to why. How would some 20-50 year old suburbanite, who has never even flown an actual aircraft, know what the correct/incorrect flight characteristics of an Albatros DVa are? Hey, I once sat in the cockpit of a BF109G (and got booted out of the National Air & Space for doing so) but that does not make me a Messerschmitt expert. Still, no hobby is safe from the madness that is an expert.
you didn't climb into a plane at air and space...your lucky they didn't shoot you
It was a stupid move Bob, but yes I did. On a Sunday morning in 1986, I went under the velvet rope and climbed into a Messerschmitt because I had read many years previous that Messerschmitt pilots had to be under 6ft tall in order to fit inside their plane. Guess I had to see for myself. I wonder how any of those Luftwaffe lads fit into that crate at all, that cockpit is very cramped. I tried to snuggle down into it when four very large security guards came into the room and removed me from the 109 and then the museum but not before taking my information and banning me for ten years.
you never cease to amaze me...you've got brass ones...smiling my A off
Well...at least it wasn't a "lifetime" ban, right? Those have been handed down before!
I do not know if it was a matter of having brass ones than jus getting caught up in a moment. Years and years of building and reading up on Messerschmitts, then being alone in a room with the real thing...well, I just couldn't help myself. Oh, I have been back to the museum twice after the incident with no further problems.
I was going to add my 2 cents (pence) on the "Great Huff & Puff" on yonder board, but you gentlemen seem to have hit all the high points with nary a drop of virtual blood or spittle flying about.
Well done lads!
Looking forward to seeing a side by side comparison of the finished Eduard G-6 to other "lesser" kits.
I expect I won't have long to wait here where builders reside.
Well things seem to have finally calmed a bit, thought it was all going to flare up again. But of course Brett did ask that folks remember to be civil, so that may have helped. I still am a bit confused about why it got so testy. Not why folks were comparing and measuring, and I appreciate errors in kits being brought out so I can decide what I want to fix or not (see my HU-16 build), but the anger was surprising. I honestly think there was some left over baggage, or maybe national pride at the root of some of it, I mean the very first post in the first thread was a full on broadside. Then "groupthink" took over and it was feeding time. Mixed in there are some good posts, objective and trying to find the good points, and what to do about the bad ones, but those poor guys had their throats ripped out, over a model airplane! Ahh well I don't understand rioting after your team wins a championship either so what he heck do I know! I am on vacation for another day or two enjoying time with my daughter, son in law and new granddaughter, then I will dive back in to that travesty against model aviation I am building!
A bit of a reality check perhaps?:
The real Me-109G's span is known as 9925 mm on Wikipedia, Mansur Mustafin says it is 9924 mm. The wartime production tolerance range is, according to Mansur, about 6 mm (full size), from 9920 to 9926 mm.
9924 mm translates to 206.7 mm in 1/48th scale: There has never been any controversy about this for over 70 years, even the Wikipedia page has got it right within a mm.
The Eduard kit's span is 214 mm, including dihedral, the real thing was 206.7 mm, or 7.3 mm narrower, which is around 14 inches.
I don't know how if it could possibly get any simpler than that, and why there is any need to make this seem complicated...
This puts the Me-109G within 6 inches of the FW-190A's wingspan, or in effect turning a small fighter into a big one... And you don't think there is a problem here? You could no longer describe it correctly to a blind person...
So let me ask you this, how far does it have to be off to no longer be a scale model? 2 mms? 3 mms? 4 mms? 5 mms? 6 mms? SEVEN mms!?!
Is there actually a limit to this nonsense?
Gaston
The only problem I can see are the so called "experts" who are full of their over inflated importance (aka-p**s and wind) peeing on everyone else's parade. As far as making this possibly simpler, try this, purchase the kit or don't, build the kit or don't, nail your bollocks to a barn door or don't. Who the hell really cares or why should they? It is a model kit! If it looks like a Messerschmitt, then its good enough.
Gaston,
Eduard according to the web site has sold 20,000 Fw-190 kits. The Spitfire is selling strong and who knows what the Me-109 will bring. Don't even mention the Monogram B-29 and all of its accuracy issues and yet how long have these inaccurate kits have been on the market? Hard to believe it but, people buy these things and enjoy them and display them. Go figure.
Very well put Stephen. Cheers.
Quoting these sales figures to back up the quality of a kit amounts to saying that because a lot of people have seen UFOs, this means they exist...
The Eduard Fw-190A/F, in particular, is a rotten shame because, unlike the B-29, there has actually been an excellent Hasegawa alternative in the scale that came out the same year. In sales the Hasegawa obviously came out a sore loser through sheer ignorance: Eduard builds sadly outnumber it by twenty to one online, and that's a conservative estimate. This despite a similar price/availability... Is it any wonder that, the same year, Hasegawa gave up on 1/48th WWII, and hasn't been back since? It's been over five years since Hasegawa have abandoned this popular scale/era. Given what the Eduard kit looks like, I would have quit as well... G.
it'really you the real "GASTON" with pics and paint draw ?
We look forward to your first article accompany with photos !
see you soon ...
just sorry if you are not the real gaston lol
And please let's not carry the fight over here 🙂 It os a nice kit, but 109 fans are still waiting for the perfect kit. Me I am looking forward to getting one someday, because I think it looks great!
Yes...please don't!
I'm floating the idea that the true believers of the absolute/accurate Me-109 set up a "Kick Starter" account and start a company. Raise the funds,do the drawings on the CAD's (They all have the "Drawings" ) and through grass roots contributions from the modeling community(You don't need to go to a bank with Kick Starter the public/internet provides the cash votes) and do the right thing. Call me a dreamer but , this maybe the next step in creating new modeling companies. If the critic's can rave and growl ...they too can take the risk and praise of their efforts. Not.
Starting to look like HS here, gents. Let's throttle back or be tossed in with the DH's. Build, don't brood.
Spot on Bryan,build folks, build!
Overall, this has to be one of the most amazing threads we've had here, and it doesn't look anything like Hyperscale. Congrats around.
I understand the analysis, appreciate the education and respect other's opinions, but the name calling is simply juvenile and unnecessary-we should hold ourselves to a higher, gentler standard and perhaps attempt to raise our modeling skills rather than our rhetoric. There are other places for that.
Yes, your right in saying " we should hold ourselves to a higher,gentler standard". More like play the ball and not the man. However, there are folks who have earned their reputation for trolling and they can be called out by name in my book. Over all this is pretty tame stuff compared to some of word play that has been going on some sights in which whole strings have been removed and reminders to play nice have have been posted. Some of the comments are bare knuckled over inert plastic models... of all things. I just hope that the comment "There by the grace of God go I" doesn't apply to me... we do practice a hobby for pleasure ,relaxation and a little socializing and above all having fun.
Well stated. The shenanigans on the "other site" sicken me, and if we must work to avoid that path, so be it.
Refreshing to see the lack of rancour here, unlike Hyperego, where if somebody doesn't dance to a certain (gentle,(optional) mans tune, he tries to run them off the site.
I must drop in more often.