Control surface positions on hardstand?

Started by Clarence Novak · 6 · 2 years ago
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    Clarence Novak said 2 years, 3 months ago:

    This may be the most uniformed question I ever have, but I'm fine with that as the question is driving me nuts the more I research? Someone remarked that my Shack had both ailerons in the down position. I know this answer may differ with some aircraft? I think the 'aileron differential' is the question, if that either is disabled, or due to selections via

    cockpit controls or a result of hydraulic leak down? Or whatever I cant' think of? As a modeler, if I have separate control surfaces, I'm going to drop them if the plane is parked, but is this generally correct? Can't recall EVER seeing a model or actual aircraft with the ailerons showing differential when static? Generally it seems most aircraft park with the control surfaces 'neutral' to mitigate any winds pushing on the aircraft? Not sure? Ok my student book is open to an explanation. Thanks

    1 attached image. Click to enlarge.

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    Jeff Bailey said 2 years, 3 months ago:

    Hi Clarence! @jagmkx

    I took some flying lessons long ago plus, my Dad was a fighter & dive bomber pilot during WWII, so I'm crazy about aircraft. Generally speaking, when an aircraft is parked, the control surfaces will be in the neutral position. I've never heard of control surfaces - ailerons, vertical stabilizer, & elevator or horizontal stabilizer ever drooping because of a hydraulic problem, but I suppose it's possible. WWI aircraft almost always had their elevator (horizontal stabilizer) in the down position when parked due to gravity. Back in the earlier days of flying, all those control surfaces were mechanically moved by wires. rods & pulleys, Therefore, the control surfaces could be in an other-than neutral position. If the stick was angled to the left, the right aileron would be down & the left one is up. The pedals usually ended up neutral because most pilots' legs are the same length. To go down, the stick or wheel is pushed forward; to go up, the stick is pulled back toward the pilot. When the stick is angled right, the right aileron is up & the left one is down. That is pretty much the rule all the way up to modern times when some of the planes have elevons, for instance, and other computer controlled surfaces that function slightly differently. But it's still pretty much the same ... to turn left, move the stick left - or turn the control "wheel" left like a car ... and so on. Some had springs which brought the stick to a neutral position.

    I hope this helps!

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    Andrew H said 2 years, 3 months ago:

    Clarence, no problem in asking with the intent to learn.

    As to the question of the differential pitching of the ailerons, I cannot think of a conventional application where the ailerons do not deflect opposite if each other (flaperons are different), in direct relation to the movement of the controls. Most all WWII vintage aircraft would not have had hydraulically driven primary control surfaces, but rather would be mechanically linked to the control column/stick. A weak point in that system could be a disastrous situation in the air. Aircraft systems will of course vary, but usually the controls would be locked when parked by securing the control column/stick, which u would see the stick centered in the forward position. In this case, the elevators would be dropped and the ailerons would not be deflected as the stick/yoke would not be deflected left or right. In a case where the controls are left loose, the ailerons may (gravity, and control design) or may not tend to center, and deflection may be possible, depends... no matter though, the ailerons should be one up, one down, and equidistant from center on an aircraft of this vintage.

    The only exception may be for repairing controls, maybe where cables are disconnected from a bull crank or control horn, at which case I would think gravity would pull both ailerons down.

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    George R Blair Jr said 2 years, 3 months ago:

    That is a great question, Clarence (@jagmkx). My wife and I are both retired C-141 pilots and it generated quite a bit of discussion between us. There are a lot of variables here.

    First, if there is a direct mechanical linkage from the controls to the ailerons, they will deflect in the opposite direction. I flew T-37s for 8 years, and my wife flew T-41s for 4 years, both of which had mechanical linkages. Both have mechanical locks on the controls to prevent the controls from flapping in the wind.

    The second case is an airplane that has hydraulic controls, where you have hydraulics that actually move the ailerons. When the plane is not powered, there isn't any hydraulic power to the ailerons. Most hydraulically-powered planes have control valves that trap the hydraulics when the power is off. This prevents the ailerons from banging around in a high wind and damaging themselves. Both of us remember going out to C-141s to preflight them and finding both ailerons deflected down an inch or so. This was probably due to aging valves and the like. When the ailerons were powered, they always moved in opposite directions.

    A whole other question would be about differential deflection of ailerons, where the ailerons deflect up and down a different number of degrees. Also, if you ever deal with a delta wing, you start talking about elevons, which combine the ailerons and elevators, which is a whole different deal.

    Anyway, back to your original question. You would need to find out about the system that powers the controls on the plane you are modeling. If it is mechanical, the ailerons should be deflected in opposite directions. If it is a hydraulic control-system, then it might be possible to droop down if they didn't have check valves. I usually don't want to learn that much about the planes I am building, so it is always safe to streamline the ailerons with the wings, and don't put them up or down.

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    Clarence Novak said 2 years, 3 months ago:

    Yes the phrase: "You don't know what you don't know!" applies here! Thanks for all the very detailed and interesting answers to my question. Fortunately my Shack's ailerons are not glued so a few drops of PVA should set them right. I appreciate the effort it took to address this topic in great details! One of the best parts of a model community and
    a main reason I enjoy it..the people! Cheers

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    Spiros Pendedekas said 2 years, 3 months ago:

    Ditto with all Gents' points above, my friend @jagmkx!
    Yes, the surfaces that are kept "neutral" with only hyd pressure will sooner or later droop down after engine shutdown (this will include air brakes and so on, like the, say, F-5A ventral air brake).
    As always, having pictorial evidence of your intended posing will be a blessing.